Interview with Jeffrey Sachs

After his most recent visit to Havana, Belly of the Beast journalist Liz Oliva Fernández interviewed world-renowned economist and professor, Jeffrey Sachs.

Sachs is a bestselling author, educator, and global leader in sustainable development. He is currently the Director of the Center for Sustainable Development at Columbia University. In addition to his teaching duties, he is also President of the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network, a commissioner of the UN Broadband Commission for Development, and an SDG Advocate for UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres.

In his interview with Liz Oliva Fernández, Sachs analyzes the impact U.S. sanctions have on Cuba's economy and puts into context the extraterritorial nature of the sanctions.

“The implications of the bloqueo are very serious. Cuba’s income per person is probably 1/3 or 1/4 of what it would be without the bloqueo. I think it’s important to say the Cuban government has done an exceptionally good job of addressing social needs, the needs for nutrition, for schooling, for health care, despite the U.S. bloqueo”.

TRANSCRIPT

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Professor Jeffrey Sachs, it's a pleasure having you here. Welcome to the belly of the beast.

Jeffrey Sachs:

Thank you. Great to be with you.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

You are recently in Havana. What were your impressions of Cuba?

Jeffrey Sachs:

I love coming to Cuba. This was not the first trip. We had a wonderful time. There's so much culture and music everywhere, which I absolutely love. But the economic situation is extremely difficult. There's clearly a lot of neighborhoods in Havana, which is where I was. This trip was really dilapidated, poverty difficulties for me, an opportunity also to understand a little bit better about the situation of U.S. politics vis-à-vis Cuba.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

What have the U.S. sanctions meant for a country like Cuba?

Jeffrey Sachs:

Now, the implications of the blockade are very serious. Cuba's income per person is probably a third or fourth of what it would be without the blockade. I think that it's important to say that the Cuban government has done an exceptionally good job of addressing social needs, the needs for nutrition, for schooling, for health care. Despite the U.S. bloqueo Cuba has been able to survive the blockade. But it’s definitely meant more poverty, the lack of ability of Cuba to really be at the forefront of technology and the digital age, which would otherwise would be because there are so many skilled people, so many trained people, and so on.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Do you think that U.S. sanctions have changed in the last 20 years?

Jeffrey Sachs:

When Trump declared Cuba a sponsor of state terrorism, which is completely preposterous — This tightened up the restrictions and made it even harder for anybody to do business. It made it harder for banks to do business. So the sanctions are quite strong right now. Of course, there are some cases of trade being made even with the United States, but the sanctions are really restrictive.

You know, when I went to Cuba, my university, oh, they needed to make sure that I was in complete compliance with the law in every way. And which hotel are you staying at? You can't stay here. Only this list. And you can't do this. And you can't do that. They're quite restrictive. We follow the rules because that's our law. But the law is stupid and it's harmful.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

What has been the impact of Cuba being on the state sponsor of terrorism list?

Jeffrey Sachs:

As soon as that was made and that was, again, not a vote of Congress, that was just an executive order of Trump. As soon as that happened, even projects that had been going on, even some banking relations, even some tourism. Some cruise ships, for example, that had been visiting everything stopped because that was really an escalation and it was completely arbitrary.

It wasn't based on anything. You know, just Trump being Trump. But Biden, because he's a coward, didn't change it.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Are sanctions more deadly in Cuba than they are in other countries like Venezuela, Russia, Iran, for example?

Jeffrey Sachs:

The sanctions have been longer lasting for Cuba. In this sense, they've had a pernicious effect over many decades. The sanctions for Venezuela were very harsh and did a lot of damage, mainly because they prevented Venezuela from even maintaining its oil output. And so the revenues of the government collapsed. In the case of Russia, the sanctions really didn't work very well because Russia was able to change its trade relations with other countries.

It shifted its oil sales, for example, from Europe to India and to China. And so Russia, by being bigger and having an ability to shift its exports pretty quickly, I really didn't get hit by the sanctions the same way. But Venezuela took a very big hit.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Critics of the Cuban government say the embargo is not a big deal because Cuba can't just do business with the rest of the world. Is there any truth to that?

Jeffrey Sachs:

That's a complete lie and a complete irresponsibility. American politicians are completely irresponsible. The one that was most responsible for the blockade now in recent years is under arrest. And on his way to jail, most likely, Menendez of New Jersey. He's just a gangster. He's a criminal. And he used the blockade for hustling for money, for personal gain, for political gain.

But politicians or those who say, oh, it's the fault of the Cuban government, oh, it doesn't have any effect. Well, that's absurd. If it doesn't have any effect, lift it. But the reason that they keep it on is that they know that it hurts. And that's actually really sadistic. The American policy is based on hurting Cuba, based on hurting Cubans, but it has nothing to do with the views of the American people. And it makes no economic sense and it hurts the American people, too.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Can you talk about compliance with financial institutions?

Jeffrey Sachs:

Basically, the reach of the U.S. dollar is very strong and banks that need to deal in dollars are afraid to deal with Cuba, even if they're not dealing in dollars with Cuba. They are dealing in dollars with other countries. So they're afraid of secondary sanctions from the United States. So people who say, well, that's just the U.S., let them trade with Europe, let them trade with Canada.

This isn't the way it works, because those businesses also have U.S. based dealings. They have dollar based dealings. Just about every major company does. And they're afraid of getting slapped with sanctions from the U.S.. And so the U.S. reach goes because of the dollar based system, maybe the BRICS countries, when China, Brazil, Russia, India, South Africa and the other BRICS countries create a non dollar payment system.

This will give some new avenues for Cuba. But right now the dollar is the main way that trade gets done. And so banks anywhere in the world don't want to do business. So you can't do credit cards, you can't do normal trade, you can't do trade financing. Even ships won't come to Havana because then they can't go on to the United States.

Everything about their trade is restricted. And so everything is made hard. And people will say it has no effect, and don't understand anything.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Yeah, I always say that. Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but the way to prove that I'm wrong and the people are wrong on the sanctions is no real law is just lifted.

Jeffrey Sachs:

So we if it's not doing anything, if it's not harming people, then just lifted.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Do you think that there is a country that can survive as long as Cuba under US sanctions?

Jeffrey Sachs:

Well, Cuba's very impressive because this has been going on for more than six decades, despite everything, despite the impoverishment that has been driven into Cuba by the US policies. In some places, despite the lack of foreign investment, the difficulties of trade, the social standards, the culture, the resilience is very, very strong. The United States is completely isolated diplomatically in this and you have a vote in the General Assembly every year.

And the United States just ignores all the international rules. Well, that hurts the United States a lot. And whenever the Americans are told about all of this because they don't really hear about it very much, but when they are told about it, they say, oh, come on, this is we're in 2024. Are you kidding? Why do we have sanctions that go back to 1958, 1959, not 58, 59, 60, 61.

They're shocked about it. They don't know about it, but they're shocked about it.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Why has the U.S. sanctions in Cuba for so long? What is the goal of the sanctions?

Jeffrey Sachs:

And I think it's a combination of corruption like Menendez and Florida politics. That's all. It's not the demands of the American people. They don't like it. They don't want it. People want to go visit Cuba.

Liz Oliva Fernández

Yeah, it's their neighbor.

Jeffrey Sachs:

They want culture, good music, great music, great fun, great beaches. They want to go see. And by the way, there are lots of Cuban-Americans that want to visit their families more easily, that want to have normal trade, that want to make businesses. So this is not popular. This is not to anybody's benefit except Menendez, who's a thug and Marco Rubio, who, you know, wants to be king of Dade County.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Professor, for me it is really hard to understand because the sanctions are Old Dominion, this being in power. Why What is so special about Cuba that the U.S. government has been trying to overthrow like the Cuban government? Because that requires energy. That requires money.

Jeffrey Sachs:

So why basically, you know, the U.S. is a bully. It's a bully anywhere in the world, all over the world. It overthrows governments regularly. And Cuba had the nerve to say, no, we're not going to be overthrown. We're going to do it our way. And that really annoys a bully. It's like saying you can't bully us. And so that attitude is what gets these politicians like Biden.

Jeffrey Sachs:

But the truth is, even that isn't really the explanation anymore. Biden once said, You know, I don't want to take on Menendez and I don't want to take him on. Now, Menendez is going to jail, so maybe this will end. But basically, this is a few people who run the show. This is not the American people. This is not some great ideological escapade.

Maybe because the state of Florida is probably more reliably Republican now, not even a swing state, although we'll see. Maybe the Democrats won't care so much about these sanctions anymore. But this is a game like the United States plays all over the world, but it's a game with a huge cost, a huge social cost, a huge cost to real people.

But believe me, these politicians in the United States don't think about real people. They think about power. They think about gimmicks. They think about the vote in the state of Florida. They think about the money that they're going to get for campaign contributions. These are not decent people, I'm afraid that that put this and keep this policy in place.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Do you have any insight into why, Biden has embraced Trump’s Cold-war era policy toward Cuba instead of bringing back the Obama policy of engagement? Because Bob Menendez right now is out of the picture.

Jeffrey Sachs:

Yeah, basically, Biden's a coward and so he doesn't stand up for principles on almost any front. He's kept the Cold War attitudes everywhere. He is afraid of being attacked from the right wing. He's, of course, they may be thinking in some remote chance he's going to win the state of Florida, but he's basically a coward. And that's true on foreign policy across the board.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Who's running the ship when it comes to Biden's policy on Cuba?

Jeffrey Sachs:

It was Menendez up until Menendez's arrest. Probably it's a couple of political advisers. Others who say, oh, don't get into it, nobody cares. You know, you'll get criticized from the right. Trump will criticize you. It'll hurt the state of Florida. Maybe Marco Rubio will criticize you. Basically, Biden doesn't have principles when it comes to foreign policy.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Have you had the opportunity to talk to someone inside of the Biden administration and say, okay, this is wrong, we need to do it better?

Jeffrey Sachs:

Well, they've heard me because I've spoken in many forms about this in the U.N. and the Human Rights Council and elsewhere. I have such a large list of complaints about the Biden administration that it's I don't think they're listening to me anymore because I'm complaining not only about Cuba, but about Ukraine, about the Middle East, about China. They don't want to hear from me.

All they know is that I complain. But the truth is, they're not doing it right. This is really the main point.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

Is there a way that Cuba can progress economically, even when it is subject to sanctions?

Jeffrey Sachs:

The Cuban government has done a very good job of maintaining the social services, maintaining the focus on health, maintaining the focus on education, maintaining the focus on nutrition, and maintaining the focus on culture. So the Cuban government's been very resilient for a long time in this. But a lot of prosperity depends on trade and finance and tourism and connectivity.

So I think that there are limits to what the government can do on its own. I think it's important for Cuba to reach out to all the rest of the neighborhood, other than the U.S., at least to Mexico, very importantly to Central America, to the rest of the Caribbean, of South America, and say, look, you know, at least we need normal relations with you and let's figure out the payments problems, the finance problems, the ways around the U.S. sanctions.

I think there's something that can be done about that.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

These countries, for example, in the Caribbean, don't depend on the United States or U.S. dollars.

Jeffrey Sachs:

Of course, they're vulnerable. But on the other hand, the United States cannot just say to the whole neighborhood, we don't care. We don't listen to you. We determine everything. If the rest of the neighborhood says, look, this isn't working for us, and there are many things that are not working for the Caribbean, more generally, there are many things that are not working for Mexico and Central America.

The whole region has trouble that it doesn't need to have and it needs to say also to the United States, look, we need a rational balanced relationship, because remember, it's not only Cuba, like you said, it's Venezuela. Big sanctions. This regime did a lot of damage to Venezuela, but it did a lot of damage throughout the region. And then people migrate to the U.S. and the U.S. says, oh, my God, we have so much migration.

Well, come on, we need development in the region. We don't need this kind of self-inflicted punishment or artificial punishment. And so I do think that the region can have a voice, but it needs to be a voice together because Cuba thrives alone. We know what happens if the whole region together raises its voice and says, hey, this isn't working, stop bullying and let's work out together how we can make something work for everybody. I think there's some chance of that.

Liz Oliva Fernández:

But we don't have the solution yet.

Jeffrey Sachs:

Not, not yet. But we're going to keep working.